science debunked?

Discuss about the science of Allah's creation.
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anotherbrother
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science debunked?

Post by anotherbrother » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:43 pm

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheIslammir ... nd=14&ob=5


can someone explain to me about this user? whether he's using mistranslations etc.

its making me a bit uncomfertable, i havent watched any of the videos by the way.
please, truthful answers.

TheAtheist
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Re: science debunked?

Post by TheAtheist » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:17 am

I seem a bit confused - you/he claims that the big bang is mentioned in the Qur'an, but then you claim that the big bang never happened and that man was made out of dirt about 6,000 years ago. Please make up your mind.
Evolution is not a theory it is an umbrella of many observable, demonstratable proven facts.

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MuhammadA
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Re: science debunked?

Post by MuhammadA » Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:05 pm

TheAtheist wrote:I seem a bit confused - you/he claims that the big bang is mentioned in the Qur'an, but then you claim that the big bang never happened and that man was made out of dirt about 6,000 years ago. Please make up your mind.
Evolution is not a theory it is an umbrella of many observable, demonstratable proven facts.


Okay just to address this, there is no confusion. The Quran does not contradict the big bang. Infact when Allah explains the creation of the universe he mentions things that resemble the big bang. And after all the theory is the big bang originated from an infinite mass of infinite density in a needle point, which in other words is nothing, which goes well with the words of Allah, may he be glorified.

Secondly, the creation of man is not related to the big bang, or the creation of the universe. Man was put on earth, or the material world after he disobeyed Allah. Aadam, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his pious offspring, was created and fashioned in heaven as stated in many texts. A place not detectable by scientific instruments, and unrelated to the physical universe.

Allah says in the Quran, in surah Baqarah, this is a book for those who believe in the unseen. Now as an athiest you do not believe in the unseen. Nor do we claim that you can detect it, if it was detectable it would not be classed as unseen. Its a belief muslims, christians, jews and those before them had, of Heaven, Hell, Angels and Jinn. And a God whom we cannot see. This belief is not based on direct material proof for any of these, the faith is based on indirect indicators.

For example, the fine tuning in the universe, the beauty and splendour that surrounds us. The marvelous systems in the cell... and so on and so forth lead those who want to believe to believe in the revelations. The reason there is no direct proof is also answered by Allah, since Aadam (AS) we are on earth as a test bed for us. Those who do righteous deeds will return to the original home of paradise. Say if Allah was to show us himself there would not be a man who would disbelieve thus removing any possibility of test. An example is given in surah al-Maidah. When Jesus(AS) asked Allah for a table of food (the last supper?) Allah said, okay sure, but... if, if any one of the disciples disbelieves after that, then for him will be the worst punishment. Why? Because when there is direct proof such as that then the person who disbelieves is even more guilty. In the same way, Allah has left us sign posts pointing to his wisdom and majesty. And he has balanced it such, that a person can believe by pondering over them, and he can disbelive if he does not pay them much heed. This is a true test.

Also a thing to keep in mind, is muslims believe the Quraan to be the direct speech of Allah and 100% truth. The relationship with science is, that the Quraan proves science, if science disagrees with the Quraan then its science at fault and not the Quraan. If science agrees or disagrees it should not affect a muslims belief in the slightest. Much of science deals only with material things, thus its bound to reject the unseen. And we have already decided we believe in the unseen, so it doesnt make sense for us to now use science as a criterion. Surely the Quran is the furqaan. The criterion.

I do not intend to start any debate as I have no time for such things. All I wish is to address the simple confusion. If that is addressed then all is well, if not Im sorry for taking your time.

Take Care, Regards,
Muhammad.
مِّنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ رِجَالٌ صَدَقُواْ مَا عَـهَدُواْ اللَّهَ عَلَيْهِ فَمِنْهُمْ مَّن قَضَى نَحْبَهُ وَمِنْهُمْ مَّن يَنتَظِرُ وَمَا بَدَّلُواْ تَبْدِيلاً
"Among the believers are men true to what they promised Allah . Among them is he who has fulfilled his vow [to the death], and among them is he who awaits [his chance]. And they did not alter [the terms of their commitment] by any alteration" - Surat Al-'Aĥzāb : 23

TheAtheist
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Re: science debunked?

Post by TheAtheist » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:49 am

which goes well with the words of Allah, may he be glorified. - please provide a reference.

A(a)dam, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his pious offspring, was(were) created and fashioned in heaven. I thought Adam was created by allah out of a piece of dirt.

And a God whom we cannot see - What is the use of a God that you cannot see feel or sense in any way. Since he last "appeared" to Mohammed he has not shown any evidence of his existance. Of all the prayers uttered not one has shown any influence of Allah.

Tthe faith is based on indirect indicators. What indirect indicators? The things that are not seen by scientists can be supported by sound scientific proof of their existance. Atoms cannot be seen but it is beyond doubt that they are there.

For example, the fine tuning in the universe, there is no fine tuning in the universe the pattern in the stars shows an exact random appearance The planets are in their orbits because if it was not it would have lost orbit long ago. This is called evolutionary astronomy, only those planets in the correct orbit survives.

Allah has left us sign posts pointing to his wisdom and majesty. Please provide an example.

muslims believe the Quraan to be the direct speech of Allah and 100% truth. Most of the stories from the Qur'an have been taken out of the Jewish Torah
obviously Mohammed had read the Torah at some stage and used a lot of its stories.

if science disagrees with the Quraan then its science at fault and not the Quraan. Can you please give an example of where science and the Quran disagree?

Thank you for your response - it is beautiful and well written except for the spelling. it has given me much to think about

TheAtheist

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Nisa
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Re: science debunked?

Post by Nisa » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:58 pm

In my eyes, asking about something means being inquisitive about it, which means you are seeking something, which means the more you seek, the more chances that you'll find the truth, i.e Islam. InshaAllah t'Ala (with the will of Allah,the exalted/if Allah,the exalted, wills). But there is a fine line between being inquisitive, and being ignorant/closed-minded.

I shall highlight your comments and questions in blue and try to answer inshaAllah t'Ala.

"And a God whom we cannot see - What is the use of a God that you cannot see feel or sense in any way. Since he last "appeared" to Mohammed he has not shown any evidence of his existance. Of all the prayers uttered not one has shown any influence of Allah."

What I'd like to ask is, (a) how can you claim with such certainty that no ones prayers have shown any influence of Allah? And (b) do you honestly believe that a god, the Lord Almighty is justifiable to any of His creation?

I'll give you an example, and this is no where near comparing Allah to a parent, but it's just to give you an idea of what I'm trying to say.

If as a parent, you bring a child into this world, you bring them up, provide for them and in turn, set certain rules and guidelines for them, as most parents do, would you want your child to rebel against any rule you made? Would you want your child to go astray? Would you want your child to question your judgement and wisdom when you as a parent know you have set a certain rule for a good reason? Is the parent in anyway justifiable to his child as to why they have set the rules? This is just a parent/child example I have given, imagine how much more loyalty, sincerity and obedience we owe to the very Sublime, Exalted, and most Magnificent Lord Almighty Allah! To the very creator that gave us our life and will take our life!

According to the Quran, Allah tells us that He is the only creator and sustainer of all that exists and that nothing and no one exists alongside Him, nor does He have any partners. He tells us that He is not created, nor is He like His creation in anyway. He calls Himself by a number of names and three of them are:

A) The First - (Al-Awal)
B) The Last - (Al Akhir)
C) The Eternal, who is sought after by His creation, while He has no need from them at all. (As-Samad)

He always has existed and He never was created, as He is not like His creation, nor similar to it, in any way.

As for your seeing and sensing comment, well, did you see the people that built the Eiffel tower? Yet you see it and know it was created. Did you see Big Ben being built? Yet you know that it was created. Did you see Leonardo di Vinci painting the Mona Lisa? Yet you know it's a painting and was painted and created. Did you see the actual builders creating the house/place you are living in right now? Yet you know it was built and was created.(I can go on&on with these examples!!! :) )... But to sum it up, its a very simple concept, every creation has a creator!!!

So, if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them, buildings without seeing the builders build them, similarly, we know the universe and all that is in it, was created, and in the same way, we can believe that Allah created everything without having to see Him (or touch, or hear, etc.)!!!

"Muslims believe the Quraan to be the direct speech of Allah and 100% truth. Most of the stories from the Qur'an have been taken out of the Jewish Torah, obviously Mohammed had read the Torah at some stage and used a lot of its stories. "

All religions originated with Allah and then people began to add or take away from the teachings so as to take control over each other.

What you fail to understand is that the Torah and the Injeel (bible) were both books that Allah sent to the messengers at that time. Musa (Moses), may peace be upon him, had the Torah revealed to him, as Isa (Jesus), may peace be upon him, had the bible revealed to him. But the people of their times, had purged and destroyed so much of the original teachings.. And as it was Allahs words in both the Torah and Bible, ofcourse some of the original text will be the same as the Quran, also Allahs word.

As for your last comment.... Well, know that our beloved prophet Muhammad, may peace be upon him, could not read or write, but was illiterate! So, There goes your "obviously Mohammed had read the Torah at some stage and used a lot of its stories" theory!!!! :D

Most Atheists tend to run after theories and invented stories that have no base or source to what they believe in.

May Allah guide you towards the truth. Ameen

Nisa.
كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِتَالُ وَهُوَ كُرْهٌ لَّكُمْ وَعَسَىٰ أَن تَكْرَهُوا شَيْئًا وَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَعَسَىٰ أَن تُحِبُّوا شَيْئًا وَهُوَ شَرٌّ لَّكُمْ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
"Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know"
- Quran 2:216

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MuhammadA
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Re: science debunked?

Post by MuhammadA » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:22 pm

Hi there,

I would not like to debate, and I do not have time for it, but I just read your reply and you have made some basic mistakes in regards to our beliefs. We can go on and on about the other things like scientific proofs in the Quran, which you will say are not. Etc etc, but one thing that can be sorted in little time is the following mistakes.

A(a)dam, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his pious offspring, was(were) created and fashioned in heaven. I thought Adam was created by allah out of a piece of dirt.
Anas reports that the Prophet (saw) said: “When Allah shaped Adam in Paradise He left him for however long He wished to leave him, so Iblis began going around him and looking to see what he was. When he found him to be hollow he realised that he was a creature that could not exercise self restraint.” (Muslim)

And a God whom we cannot see - What is the use of a God that you cannot see feel or sense in any way. Since he last "appeared" to Mohammed ... Allah has never appeared to any man. This is not from our belief that Muhammad(pbuh) saw Allah. ‘Aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, HE IS A LIAR, FOR ALLAH SAYS: ‘No vision can grasp Him.’ (6.103) And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the Unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: ‘None has the knowledge of the Unseen but Allah.’" (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 477)

Tthe faith is based on indirect indicators. What indirect indicators? The things that are not seen by scientists can be supported by sound scientific proof of their existance. Atoms cannot be seen but it is beyond doubt that they are there. Btw atoms can be seen, but particles like photons, anti-neutrinos, higgs bosons etc cannot.

muslims believe the Quraan to be the direct speech of Allah and 100% truth. Most of the stories from the Qur'an have been taken out of the Jewish Torah
obviously Mohammed had read the Torah at some stage and used a lot of its stories. --> I think you forgot to read all of islamic history in which it says Muhammad(pbuh) could not read or write. And had his companions read and write letters for him.

"Those who follow the messenger,the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); Quran 7:157

And in a hadith, "suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read."

Thank you for your response - it is beautiful and well written except for the spelling. it has given me much to think about. Thankyou for reading, Im a progammer, I type code most of the time, not used to writing english essays so Im sorry for the bad spelling.
مِّنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ رِجَالٌ صَدَقُواْ مَا عَـهَدُواْ اللَّهَ عَلَيْهِ فَمِنْهُمْ مَّن قَضَى نَحْبَهُ وَمِنْهُمْ مَّن يَنتَظِرُ وَمَا بَدَّلُواْ تَبْدِيلاً
"Among the believers are men true to what they promised Allah . Among them is he who has fulfilled his vow [to the death], and among them is he who awaits [his chance]. And they did not alter [the terms of their commitment] by any alteration" - Surat Al-'Aĥzāb : 23

TheAtheist
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Re: science debunked?

Post by TheAtheist » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:14 am

Well from what I can understand,the Qur'an says that the earth is shaped like a ostrich egg.
The earth is an oblate spheriod ie like a basket ball being squashed.
an ostrich egg is an ovaloid like a chicken's egg.
Not at all like a squashed basket ball.
So if the Qur'an is 100% correct we seem to have a little bit of a problem.

Russell
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Re: science debunked?

Post by Russell » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:23 am

I agree that we cannot say for certain that prayers are or are not answered as we face a problem when we try to examine this question. Literally billions of people pray for billions of things to happen all the time. Many of those things will happen just by chance even if there is no god. Given the numbers even billion to one prayers will come true every day for someone on earth. Unless they were praying for the truly impossibl,e and it occurred, just finding that a prayer came true tells us nothing about god.

I believe that we can examine the claims for god(s). If we find that humans can show more morality or reason than the claimed god we can be justified in discounting that god from existence. When a god tells us something that is proven by science to be false we have a strong reason to step away from belief in that being I would suggest.

I do not believe that children should follow the rules set out by their parents without question. I have met and heard of many very foolish parents who make rules that have no rational basis. A child will come to an age and a level of understanding where they can see through their parent’s foolish notions and at that point I believe any child must have the right to question their parent’s rules or even to flout them if they cannot talk sense into their foolish parents. Hopefully most parents are not foolish and make reasonable rules but claims such as the bible makes that children owe their parents respect are simply foolish. Respect has to be earned. Must a child respect a parent who abuses them just because a book tells them to? That is an example of immorality IMHO.

its a very simple concept, every creation has a creator!!!

It may sound simple; Paley’s watchmaker has been a standard tool of creationist/religionist rhetoric for a very long time now, but the idea itself fails. Paintings can’t reproduce. Paintings can’t carry their traits into future generations so evolutionary forces can’t affect them. Living organisms can so the analogy fails.

Scientists don’t just talk about evolution as some abstract idea to explain evidence found in rocks, evolution is observed to happen in real time as we watch. We don’t see major changes, say from a plant to an animal or from a hippo to a whale but then we’d have disproved evolution theory if we did as such changes take a lot of time, but we do see predictable evolutionary changes occurring in the wild and in lab tests within human lifetimes. Bacteria evolve resistance to antibiotics or to hostile environments while we watch. The birds of Daphne Major have evolved from finch ancestors to fill many of the niches currently occupied by other species on the mainland and they continue to evolve while we watch to the present day. Fruit flies are used daily in lab experiments with evolutionary theory because their short generation time allows us to see significant change over a short period of time. Evolution works regardless of what religious texts say about its impossibility.

Do you know of the cassimere effect? It was a theory from quantum physics which stated that truly empty space was impossible. Heisenberg proposed that there was a limit to the resolution with which we could know the physical attributes of a quantum system. So far it sounds like an instrumentation problem but Heisenberg went further. He proposed that the limitation wasn’t with the instruments but with the behaviour of quantum systems. As you forced a system to have a more exactly defined speed (for example) by measuring it you would drive it’s other attributes to be more and more unknowable. Many tests have proven this crazy sounding idea. Now a true vacuum, as must exist without a universe, is a very specifically known quantum state. A state that Heisenberg said can’t exist. To prove it scientists set about creating a perfect vacuum. Obviously there are limits to how well we can do this but they created a test chamber and excluded from it as much energy and matter as they could then they watched (with instruments) what happened. The more perfect the vacuum they created the more that vacuum was filled with vacuum energy. Measurable quantum particle / anti particle pairs appeared and annihilated each other within their test chamber and they got more and more energetic the more perfect the vacuum. Imagine the most perfect vacuum that could ever be, the absence of a universe, just nothing at all. The same maths that predicted the cassimere effect states that such a vacuum would be unstable and huge energies would appear to fill the void and thus to maintain the integrity of quantum physics. One of the distinguishing features that these particle / anti particle groups have is that they contained zero energy. The positive forces exactly balanced the negative forces so these effects do not contravene energy conservation. One final piece of evidence is that the universe we live in contains, to the limit of our detection equipment, zero energy with the positive energy of matter exactly balanced by the negative energy of gravity.

The problem I find, time and again, with believers is that they don’t actually understand the science they ridicule. You have to be very careful not to start sounding foolish when you rubbish things you do not understand. Science is out there, anyone can dig into it, can study it and can learn from and about it. I think we should all do that.

Russell
The invisible and the non existant look a lot alike!

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